Scavenger
Creator: Sami-YXL || First Published: 06/13/2019 || Players: 2 || Size: 22x16
Categories: S-Rank, Hall of Fame, Fog of War, Live Play
Rating: 6.26 in 94 ratings
For design map discussion or to get suggestions from other users, visit the AWBW Discord Chat!
Comments:
Sami-YXL (06/13/2019 11:17am):
This is a fog map.It is more suitable for FoW games.
Sami-YXL (08/12/2021 08:12pm | Edited: 08/12/2021 08:16pm):
Changelog:
Fixed FTA.Improved the realization of some concepts.
aLittleFishy (08/20/2021 09:30am):
Would be nice if the armies chosen faced each other, for aesthetic purposes
aLittleFishy (08/31/2021 05:30pm | Edited: 08/31/2021 05:36pm):
With the HQ's close to their bases and the woods near them, plus the lack of good defensive terrain, this map is pretty much a
guaranteed stalemate when played by 2 evenly skilled players. The ports contribute to this because any transport built would
be too expensive to matter by the time you get the port, and a battleship would only encourage the aforementioned stalemate.
Some mountains in the middle (near the comm towers) or moving the HQ closer to the middle would help
aLittleFishy (10/04/2021 02:11pm):
Another problem with the map is rockets placed on shoal tiles 02,09 and 19,06, as they have functionally no counters; your
ground units are incredibly unlikely to make it right on top of your opponents bases and air units can get shot down by AA as
those shoal tiles are only one turns movement away from the bases, allowing your opponent to shell any infantry attempting
capture with next to no repercussions, furthering the stalling nature of matches played on it. 1/10
Uncharted 2᎓ Among Tiers (10/09/2021 01:35pm):
The easiest counter to that kind of rocket is to just take your army elsewhere and win
everywhere else on the map.

"But then I don't get to win the game!!"
Capture limits exist.


Also, a bcopter trades favorably into that rocket mentioned above.
aLittleFishy (10/09/2021 02:52pm | Edited: 10/10/2021 06:52pm):
The b-copter trades favorably but it takes a long time to get reinforced, hence making a prolonged attack on the base very
difficult. Capture limit is also a problem as the limit on this map is 28 properties, forcing you towards the center of the map,
your opponent responds by building up their base and pushing into the center that you are abandoning, causing the
stalemate. In general, if your opponent starts spamming rockets, they aren't only going to put them in one side of the map,
they'll put them behind a line of tanks and hide in the forests battling over the center properties, the reason you go for the
HQ cap is that it is the only real way (against an opponent equal in skill to yourself) to end the match quickly. If there was a
day limit then it would be more reasonable but there isn't.
Also, the statement ""But then I don't get to win the game!!" Capture limits exist." is insulting to my, and every league players
intelligence. This is a strategy game, but in general, more skilled players shouldn't just call those less skilled than them stupid,
it only discourages new players from commenting, or even playing the global league. I play league to have fun matches, and
when i comment, it is because i am not having fun on those maps.
Uncharted 2᎓ Among Tiers (10/17/2021 05:46pm | Edited: 10/17/2021 05:48pm):
I don't think prolonged bcopter attacks should be difficult if you have the degree of
income advantage that warrants pushing deeply into their side of the map.
Rockets in that spot are the equivalent of two vehicles tied up into doing nothing but
stopping a potential HQ capture - that should mean that, unless you threw out vehicles
and lost trades everywhere else, you'll be ahead on vehicles to win fights over the rest
of the cities around.
This also makes the comment on "spamming rockets" even more questionable - if they
have enough material advantage to spam rockets, have a bunch of tanks *and* not
lose ground anywhere, you're probably doing something wrong in your pushing.

The statement about wins did not insult intelligence. It insulted the gamestate
awareness of people who see the need to close out won games in as few turns as
possible rather than in a safe and orderly manner.

I also don't have an issue with you not having fun on given maps, nor with you
commenting on them.
I do have an issue with underinformed negative comments on maps, however, as they
frequently become the first thing new players see upon checking the map they just got
for the first time and first impressions matter. Saying that a lategame desperation
move has "functionally no counters" and implying that will always draw games out for
lengthy periods isn't much of an opinion, but simply an incorrect factoid.
aLittleFishy (10/18/2021 02:30pm | Edited: 10/18/2021 02:37pm):
The problem is not in the opponent having a significant material advantage, it is that taking properties on the map requires
multiple turns to do (each property is two days movement for infantry), making it easy to interrupt at relatively low cost to
oneself, all the while building up forces to push your opponent away from your HQ. Saying "I don't think prolonged bcopter
attacks should be difficult if you have degree of income advantage that warrants pushing deeply into their side of the map."
doesn't work as it implies you are going for the win with property capping early, which is A: not generally the way people
play most fog maps (including high tiers), making it unreasonable to demand it on this one specifically, and B: is a very slow
way to play the map, which most people don't like. Most players will make a beeline for the opposing HQ to attempt a cap; if
they fail because of their opponent either pushing to hard on their own base, or because of clever indirect plays against
them, will begin rerouting units to build up a wall, eventually ending up with both players owning roughly half the map and
being unable to push due to the indirect wall, stalling out. The HQ push isn't just an attempt to end the match quickly, it is an
effective way to defend your own HQ early. In the early game(first 15-20 turns), the map isn't divided in half (vertically
speaking), it tends to form along the HQ fronts. 00,04 to 04,04 are very distinctly DS's territory using this strategy, (flipped for
GE), the problem is that you are correct, unless you are suiciding your units into the rocket, you will be forced to back off,
your opponent will respond by backing off from your HQ, both players will then build up in the middle and the match stalls.
Your comment fails to address what your opponent is using their resources for, in any match, it is highly questionable to
push directly into your opponents forces even with a unit count advantage, so your opponent will always attempt to capture
your HQ, not only to get the win, but to force you to divide your forces between your HQ push and defending your base. My
complaint is that it is too easy to force this kind of stall by building rockets in difficult positions to reach while pushing harder
on your opponent base. Even with an income advantage, this is one of the fog maps where you can still win simply by
starting the stalling strategy earlier than your opponent.
The statement about wins was specifically referring to the capture limit, you can argue that you didn't intend it as an insult,
but the way you worded it very much can be interpreted that way as it implies that i am unaware of the capture limits
existence (especially as you exaggerated it with the use of exclamation points).
Finally, you said "underinformed negative comments on maps"; my comments are based on both my own experiences with
the maps, (i have played on it several times, and generally will say in the comment if i haven't played on it enough to know
for sure), as well as high-tier (over 1000) matches that i have viewed, and yes, this still happens to high tiers as well. This is
also not truly a lategame desperation move, as it works both very well, being able to turn a win into a draw or loss for players
caught off-guard by this tactic, and can be employed as soon as you start to lose the center ground on your HQ side (often
around day 11-13, in general, shortly after the initial tank skirmishes).
My comment is both a personal gripe yes, but also exists to explain to players who have had this happen to them have a
quick explanation of how it happened, rather than having to pour over various matches in the view games tab, or search the
discord for how their match went wrong, which is often what i do when i don't understand how i lost a match.
I get how a negative comment out of nowhere can be frustrating if you disagree, but i assure you, my comment on this map
was very informed, and yes, assuming it is nothing more than "simply an incorrect factoid" is insulting.

SilentSwordsman (11/01/2021 08:25pm):
I can attest to rocket effectiveness on this map, though it also requires a lot of patience. I played a match here where I was way
behind on economy, but my rockets and well timed kindle power helped switch things around.

6/10 Overall interesting map, I recommend anyone knew to this map to pay attention to where the shoals are and *aren't* haha,
in FOW it is not always easy to see and I almost trapped myself once.
SonjaTheSuperior (11/01/2021 09:50pm | Edited: 11/01/2021 09:53pm):
@aLittleFishy If anything you shouldnt be complaining about rockets, but b ships, those are the indirects that can pose a
significant threat
here and can be exceedingly hard to dislodge. You mention that transports are not worth building, but they actually speed up
vehicles to HQ and other areas quite a bit (so will be worth it depending on game state, matchup, and your objectives)

If you look at distance to either HQ via vehicles you can see that there is no real HQ rushing you can do reliably, it heavily
favours the defender. While this map is a bit flank focused due to the city positioning and the chokier/hard to access center,
the center will still be valuable since it can be used to consolidate forces and create imbalances, like on pretty much all other
fog maps.

At the same time what you think are problems are not really problems rockets on 12,09 can exist to only lock HQ, and do
basically nothing else. If you are relying on rockets like that you have totally lost the game (will be killed on income and army
etc.). And if you desperately still want to win via HQ cap then you can snipe it with air.

In general you beat indirects in fog by alternating between moving away from them and then keeping pressure so they cant
advance far (which just mean they end up doing very little and cant contribute when a conflict is started somewhere else).
Rockets at the locations you indicate suffer from this on an extreme end since they dont control any contested cities. At most
all it can do is hold your HQ for a little bit of time. You use stalling pretty liberally but being delayed a few turns because you
werent able to win yet isnt a stalled position. Unless both players are massing large number of indirects then I wouldnt
expect fog games that you would see to stall out.

You write a bunch about copter trades and copters being strong, the thing is you are able to build counter units ahead of
time, and aa totally shut down copters.

So with a reasonable amount of stuff that can hit copters you will be able to deal with most copters you encounter, and if
they end up heavily spamming them and attacking you with them, even if they initially overload you, you can retreat and then
have the necessary aa (but at the same time the problem with spamming copters and then attacking with them is that you
cant adjust as well to the new situation, since you dont know when they have enough defense (they could have had enough
initially).

___

If you are anywhere near capture limit or HQ capture, then you should be able to snowball things if you are playing correctly,
and there is definitely no stalemating. You mention " Capture limit is also a problem as the limit on this map is 28 properties,
forcing you towards the center of the map,
your opponent responds by building up their base and pushing into the center that you are abandoning, causing the
stalemate."

So the way to convert is not to smash your army down the same front as far as you can go, but switch to other fronts to
increase your gains (i.e. good trades and property captures). If your advantage gets large enough everything wins, be it HQ,
cap limit etc. But if you are going to single minded on certain objectives then your advantage may be smaller then you think
(and you can overextend, and lose or maybe it is evened up again). You elude to this later:


" This is also not truly a lategame desperation move, as it works both very well, being able to turn a win into a draw or loss
for players caught off-guard by this tactic, and can be employed as soon as you start to lose the center ground on your HQ
side"
aLittleFishy (11/05/2021 09:48pm | Edited: 11/06/2021 11:59am):
@SonjaTheSuperior Your comment is largely responding to my latest comment, which was itself a response to Uncharted 2:
Among Tiers, and should not be taken out of context as you have (the copter stuff for example). For the rest, i won't deny
some ambiguous language on my part, i both apologize and will clarify. When i say rocket spam, i am mainly referring to the
repeated building of the same rocket, i.e i break the rocket with a copter and my opponent responds by building a new one,
making a continued HQ assault unviable; at most , i have only seen 2 or 3 rockets total on the field, only 1 or 2 for HQ
defense( also would like to clarify, without sacking air units continuously, the rockets will eventually move out of the shoals
and into woods on the base side, the shoals are merely strong positions during the HQ assault portion of matches).
And as for stalling/stalemating, i am referring to the pacing of the match; when i say stall i am saying the match grinds to a
halt as players both play defensively, consolidating their forces and waiting for their opponent to make a mistake. While
these situations do resolve eventually in a win or loss, that is my problem. Eventually can be a very long time, and
many players, like myself, do not enjoy this when it happens or maps that encourage it; this is the entire reason i don't play
HF or standard league. This is why i said in the comment you are referencing that my comments are partially personal
gripes.
Tomate (11/16/2021 09:52am):
idk what those guys up there are arguing about, but this is a fun
Roda da man (11/17/2021 06:05pm):
I leave comments.


These men leave essays.
Roda da man (11/17/2021 11:09pm):
I leave comments.


These men leave essays.
Tmi489 (11/18/2021 07:00pm):
You leave two comments, apparently.
Utsuhoagie (11/29/2021 01:55am):
Well he did say he leaves commentS
Xaif (12/21/2021 12:11pm | Edited: 12/21/2021 12:11pm):
I find the middle quite difficult to decipher during fog with the shading - a shoal under fog is very similar to a sea with no
fog. Something to consider as the routing is not particularly clear. The pipe seems are also pointless as they are on any map
that includes them, never seen anyone ever spend the time to break them.
Weenie Hut (12/26/2021 07:18pm):
Have you tried classic shoals?
Also the pipeseams are pretty decent. If nothing else, you can pop them with a bomber late game.
zethbrora (02/16/2022 08:37am):
Funny how many of the deep opinions analyzing this map come from "experts" who can't pass 1000.
Sami-YingXiangLi (03/31/2022 01:56pm):
This map is in the Hall of Fame as one of the most influential competitive fog maps.
Cosechador (11/05/2022 11:01am):
This discussion reminded me of the Critique of Pure Reason.
LegatusKoza (11/29/2022 07:08am):
I have deeply enjoyed my time on this map so far. Win or lose, this map never seems to disappoint when it comes to strategy.
Thavidu (01/22/2023 04:54pm):
Equal income (both player tied in income) = 22K

Brent915 (02/18/2023 02:56pm):
no i think uncharted is right even as a fairly new player i get smashed in league battles I try copters and lose I tried sami
infantry rush once, never again I think well i am playing against max so let be build arty and rockets and use a couple
mediem tanks to buy me time boom game over I use kindle on a map where all comments complained about her being used
nope. I perfer the naval battles IF YOU DONT SPAM FUCKING SUBS THEY ARE CLOAK AND DAGGER NOT YOUR
WHOLE NAVY or completely static battles where arty and rocket reign supreme and for the love of fuck get rid of grit make
it fair if grit is the opposing co you have lost I tried countering him with tanks thanrockets slowly losing 1 grid per turn trying
to build an army to push back and nothing. These days I use sonja and sasha the only 2 that will keep the battle remotely
even until leagues got rid of sasha now i am using sonja and still lose. static battles are fun what is next? should I attack?
should i defend? Some of my best made maps are static maps. If I know i am going to lose and there is no hope i throw my
troops back only for them to get slaughtered while the enemy pushes past my hq with his infantry to mow down the infantry
and misc. vehicles I have than goes back to capture. with all due respect @aLittleFishy players like that discourage new
players so please stop complaining we need more static maps not maps where 1 mega or 2 neo tanks wins the game.
which by the way screw that. Even that doesnt work for me
JΩsh_Augur (04/21/2023 07:44pm):
Great map, had some fun cool games on this one
aLittleFishy (05/07/2023 06:26pm):
@Brent915 Im not sure what part of uncharted's comment you're agreeing with, but saying you enjoy the static battles is
fine; i have no issue with your preferences. My problem is that i personally dont like that style of map, as i find it tedious and
boring. that is my opinion and while i will defend it (arguably too much) i have zero issue with you( or anyone) liking the map
for the the same reason i dont. My problem, and why i criticize the map, is that regardless of whether i like it or not, so long
as it remains in league i will be forced to play it and i have never had fun on this map. i have watched replays from some of
the best players on the site and i dont like the strategies they employ and other strategies produce inconsistent results. so i
am either forced to play a map i dont have fun with, or stop playing league until it leaves the pool, neither of which anyone
would view as a good thing. Just as you enjoy static maps i prefer maps with more options and a greater allowance for
making mistakes. what global league needs isnt more static maps as you suggest but an option to simply veto certain maps,
a feature which many competitive games have specifically because a player disliking a map can often have them playing
worse than on maps they have a neutral or positive view on. this benefits me as it means i dont have to play maps i dont like
and you dont have to play maps you dont like.

P.S if i misunderstood your comment (sorry if i did) please message me and i will fix this comment accordingly
COMMANDERWOLF (06/13/2023 06:57pm):
City Win Capture needs to be raised back to 30 to win, not the new number of 28 cities. I don't know who lowered it.
DrNasty (07/07/2023 06:38pm):
I keep on getting games on this map and I'm board of it now
danubilo (07/10/2023 06:19pm):
EQUAL INCOME 21K
likegel (12/21/2023 06:27am | Edited: 12/21/2023 06:28am):
@SonjaTheSuperior It is indeed easy to over expand, but this is a visual issue with the map.

For example, (07.05) is actually closer to green.

Battleships can indeed consolidate the front line and repel the invading enemy (07.05)

Besides, it's not very interesting to watch the conversation between two rookies. Helicopter attacks (rockets stationed in
cities) are clearly at a disadvantage.
SIMΩMEGA (04/12/2024 02:48pm):
UNEQUAL INCOME = 9K
Fenrir7 (04/27/2024 11:44pm):
@danubilo Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe equal income is actually 22k. 32 cities, 6 factories, 2 airports, 2 ports, and 2 HQs = 44 cities.
platoisbroken (07/26/2024 05:11pm):
Yeah, map leaves much to be desired. Played it a couple times in Regular League (back in the day) and overextended and got
noob-trapped twice.

Now that I'm far better, I just find it leads to STALLING or GRINDING with optimal play. (2024 RIP)
}Tschjo{ (12/28/2024 05:01am):
The boat on the HQ needs to go. Its already easy to defend, no need for extra line of defense



Advance Wars is (c) 1990-2001 Nintendo and (c) 2001 Intelligent Systems. All images are copyright their respective owners.